This episode explores the need for leaders and managers to broaden their understanding of inclusion, equity and diversity and question assumptions and conclusions when it comes to employees at work. Diversity does not always have a recognizable visible indicator. Host Kim MacDonald speaks to Wilma Li, founder of Business Knowledge Integration Inc. about her personal journey into EDI and her focus on advocating for interpersonal understanding and intercultural intelligence. EDI is evolving and better metrics of diversity and inclusion are required to reduce harms and business risks and create greater psychologically healthy and safe workplaces.
Kim MacDonald:
Hi everyone and welcome to Flourish DX, Psych, Health and Safety Canada. And I'm your host, Kim McDonald. And today I'm very excited with our guest today, Dr. Manju Varma. And she is a nationally recognized expert in anti-discrimination. And I'm gonna share a little bit more about her background and then I'm gonna ask her to share a little bit as well. So she, before her current position with the Nova Scotia Community College, the New Brunswick Anti-Racism Commissioner, and in a human rights role with the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. And she also serves on the board of the Canada Race Relations Foundation. So you have a pretty broad and deep history in some of the work that you're going to be bringing to the community college, Dr. Varma. So if you could share a little bit for our listeners about the journey that brought you here Thanks for watching!
Manju Varma:
Sure, yes. I guess, first of all, when I think of my work journey, I have to attach it to my personal journey because
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
I didn't realize this until I started working. And it's like, oh, wait a minute. The things that I talk about, the things that I wonder about, these are things that happened to me or didn't happen to me. And then my questions are, well, why didn't they happen to me? So my background is East Indian. My parents originally came from India. then settled in England. And then my parents came to Nova Scotia. And the reason being is that my father, there was a program in Nova Scotia that if you came and studied and became a teacher here in Nova Scotia, once you were done, you would get a teaching position and you would get what we called at that time your land and immigrants. permanent residence now.
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
And so, you know, my father already had a degree, so it was a great opportunity to be able to come to Canada. He had a sister and brother-in-law in Truro, Nova Scotia, who were going to do the same thing. So that's how we arrived in Nova Scotia. Unfortunately, I guess nobody was sort of keeping track of numbers, and pretty soon there were more responded by letting go of all of their non-Canadian-born teachers, regardless of tenure. So even though my dad had tenure, had several years' experience, more so than some new Canadian-born teachers coming in, he was let go. There was a human rights case that the union brought forward, and they lost. So fast forward now. later, and I find it ironic but also great that I'm working in human rights in Nova Scotia again. So it's kind of come full circle. I grew up, we moved to Moncton, New Brunswick at the time. It was this growing bustling city. My parents became entrepreneurs. So I grew up in New Brunswick. And in Moncton, while we had the communities of French and communities of Protestant and Catholic, that was about all of the diversity that was in the city. And there were great divides, you know, there were neighborhoods that were completely French, neighborhoods that were completely English, so certainly not a lot of inclusion or integration. And then as I went to school and I became a teacher, my first teaching job was with book talk. It was called Big Cove at the time. And I was teaching some children, indigenous children in their community, grade four and five. And, you know, it struck me very quickly a couple of things. First of all, that I didn't know what I was doing. So not only a young teacher, a new teacher, but I had zero training on how to teach children of a different background. in particular Indigenous children. So you know I would wonder things like why aren't their parents coming for parent teacher interview? Why you know I would say say things either in my head or out loud probably like what's wrong with these people? Why don't they care about their kids? Had no knowledge at all about residential schools, you know the impact of public schooling on Indigenous people, the trauma of all that because I never learned that. And I also never how to teach children of a different culture. So that was one thing. The other thing I started to realize is, wow, like the curriculum that we're using, which is the provincial curriculum, has no reality for these children. You know, we were reading books about, you know, girls who wanted to be ballerinas living in a condo in Toronto. Like, what does that have to do with children who are living in communities where fetal alcohol syndrome is an issue? Alcoholism in general is an issue. Intergenerational trauma is an issue. Nothing, right? So then I decided to do my PhD in education, in anti-racist education and went off to Toronto. So to go from Moncton, New Brunswick to Toronto at that time, wow. So I started to see like, okay, I grew up in a city there was 10, 12 East Indian families and now I'm living in a city where a whole apartment might be East Indian people where I can actually go and get groceries and for food that I you know that I want to make but at the same time I started to read like I was reading the research for schooling and a lot of the research first of all was American based on anti-racism and if it was Canadian it place and like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, not my reality. So that's where I guess my personal and my professional started to meld together. And I decided I wanted to really look at the experiences of people and communities who live in isolation, who don't have those supports, you know, and this is before full use of the internet. So like even just getting challenge in a city like Moncton, but in a city like Toronto, you could do that. You know, there was a place for worship. There was not so in New Brunswick, whether you're Muslim, Hindu, you know, if you weren't Christian and perhaps Jewish, there really was no place for worship. There was no place for community to be built. So that really interested me because I realized the majority of Canada at Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal and cities like that were the outliers. So yeah, so that kind of put me on the professional path of working in this area, whether it was for the federal government, private. I taught at the University of New Brunswick for seven, eight years, and in education again, you know, to work with upcoming teachers about how you do work in a multicultural classroom, in your classroom, even when that diversity isn't there. As we kind of, you know, kind of followed this idea of, well, if there aren't refugee children in our classroom, we don't need to worry about it. Or if there aren't children where English is a foreign language for them, we don't need to worry about it. When really we all should be talking about systemic racism. We should all be talking about the challenges that, you know, that inclusion bring to a classroom and how do we skill up to be
Kim MacDonald:
Absolutely.
Manju Varma:
able to meet those challenges? The other thing is whenever I give my bio, I kind of feel like it should come with a grain of salt because if you read my bio,
Kim MacDonald:
It's pretty impressive.
Manju Varma:
yeah, it is impressive. Okay.
Kim MacDonald:
It's
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
very impressive.
Manju Varma:
30 plus years.
Kim MacDonald:
Hmm.
Manju Varma:
You know,
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
what I would love to see in my bio, and I always think about doing it, and maybe I will one day, maybe I'll do a sample here, is yes, I worked for the federal government, and I worked in areas of multiculturalism and diversity and mental health, but I also switched positions a few times because I wasn't recognized for my talent.
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
I wasn't in the the no group, you know, so I missed opportunities of promotion. So while it looks like I've, I've climbed this ladder of success on paper, really, I didn't.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
There were lots
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
of times where, you know, I fell down a rung. I had, you know, I guess I taught at UNB for eight years. But at the same time, it was in a different city where my two babies were, and I was commuting back and forth. Because at that time, we didn't think a lot about women having to balance careers and motherhood, especially motherhood of small children. We didn't think a lot about having good childcare. And so while it does sound impressive, the last thing I want people to think is that this was an easy road. are difficult roads. Because if you don't, you know, if I look at your your CV, Kim, and I'm like, Oh, wow, look at all the things that Kim has done. You know, she's traveled the world, she said, like, you know, flourishing businesses. If I'm not aware of all of the hardships of all of the valleys that come with those peaks, then I may start to wonder, like, what's wrong with me? me
Kim MacDonald:
Yes,
Manju Varma:
this long to get to
Kim MacDonald:
yeah,
Manju Varma:
this position.
Kim MacDonald:
I love
Manju Varma:
And I, you
Kim MacDonald:
that insight.
Manju Varma:
know, and I don't want people to think that when they see my bio. Like it was hard. There were promotions that I was passed up for. There were places where I worked where even though I was working about working on diversity was like an environment of systemic racism, an environment of systemic discrimination. You know, I remember department. I won't name the department but a federal department and I was leaving for work or leaving work and one of the employees that was there said to me, I was new, said to me, oh you must be the viz min hire and I said no I'm the PhD hire
Kim MacDonald:
I love
Manju Varma:
but
Kim MacDonald:
that.
Manju Varma:
I had been around for a while right
Kim MacDonald:
Yes,
Manju Varma:
I wasn't like
Kim MacDonald:
yeah.
Manju Varma:
22 years old. When I was 22 years old and heard comments like that I pretended
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Manju Varma:
or internalize like, okay, I have to work
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
twice as hard now to prove that I deserve this position.
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
So, you know, all that to say around like when you see people's bios, absolutely celebrate the accomplishments, but also know that in most cases, especially for members of marginalized communities, there was a lot of there's a lot of bad stuff that happened too.
Kim MacDonald:
Mm,
Manju Varma:
So,
Kim MacDonald:
thank you for that.
Manju Varma:
yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
That is so important for us to talk about. And it's not always the things that come forward when anybody is talking in a business context or an organizational context. But I think that helps us just pause and slow down a little bit too. And
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
also even it helps create internal personal reflection to someone else's story too.
Manju Varma:
Hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
And it also, it just, I think it's a moment of connection. I think it's also a moment of connection,
Manju Varma:
Yeah,
Kim MacDonald:
Dr.
Manju Varma:
yes.
Kim MacDonald:
Verma, because it's so important for all of us. No one gets through most careers, you know, a couple of decades of careers without having some of this, but some of us also have other things that are right there in front of us
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
navigate.
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
There's a quote that I saw from you that was around, if organizations can focus on inclusion, diversity will follow naturally.
Manju Varma:
Yes, yes.
Kim MacDonald:
And maybe you could share a little bit about that, because I think that's an interesting part of this, the entire work that you're doing. And you see, we see, many of us see lots of organizations talking about diversity,
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
component and what that actually viscerally feels like for people is where the lived experience is, I think, for many people in workplaces and that connection, if it's there or not there, and how each of us are sort of helping everyone experience that. But
Manju Varma:
Hope
Kim MacDonald:
I just
Manju Varma:
I can't
Kim MacDonald:
love
Manju Varma:
hear
Kim MacDonald:
that
Manju Varma:
you.
Kim MacDonald:
quote, that inclusion
Manju Varma:
Oh.
Kim MacDonald:
before diversity.
Manju Varma:
Yeah, sure, no problem. I will tell you that you kind of went mute for
Kim MacDonald:
Oh, did
Manju Varma:
a moment.
Kim MacDonald:
I? Oh, OK.
Manju Varma:
Yes, you did
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah, no, I just, my thought was that I had read that you had said if organizations think more about inclusion and work on inclusion, that diversity will follow. And I just
Manju Varma:
right.
Kim MacDonald:
thought that was an interesting way of framing it because we hear more about diversity conversations and the work
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
of diversity
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
than the work of inclusion. And how do you differentiate them? Or how would you describe the work in organizations and inclusion and maybe related to some of the work that you're starting to do and are getting deeper in with the community college.
Manju Varma:
Absolutely. And actually, I will say that for the Nova Scotia Community College, that's what drew me to the position was that its priority on inclusion. I mean, of course, there was discussions around diversity, but even my department is, you know, it's human rights, equity and inclusion. The word
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
diversity doesn't even show up. And there was a time for sure. I mean, all conversations are revolutions, right? All relationships
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
are revolutions.
Kim MacDonald:
Yep.
Manju Varma:
and there was a time we needed to talk about diversity because people are very comfortable being in environments where everybody looked like them. And for those of us who didn't look like everybody, we didn't say much, right? We didn't talk
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
about our discomfort and we were just happy to be included. So absolutely there was a time to talk about diversity, but we live in a different world now. First of all, in Canada, crunch. And so, you know, for the first time in a long time, for many professions, many occupations, there are more jobs than people. So that changes, you know, the balance of power a little bit. But with inclusion, Yeah, so people focused on putting those faces there. So let's have someone in a wheelchair, let's have someone who is not white, let's have the older female, and you start checking off boxes. Well, that did a couple of things. First of all, it really increased the stereotype of people just getting positions because of the way that they looked, right?
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
Which is ironic, people have often gotten positions for the way that they look. It's just that the way that they look is not, you know, non-white, is not disabled. So able-bodied, you know, white population, mainly English, have always gotten positions for the way they look. But for some reason, when we started talking about diversity, there was another conversation that started at the same time Manju for this position. Are we hiring her because she's brown or are we hiring her because you know she can bring something to the table? And unfortunately the stereotype was often well because she was brown. So the so you know right away you're starting off in a place where you're not seen as being there because of your skills. You're been a seen there as check box, this box we need to check off. And we see it in conversations. So for example, I was sitting with managers at a table once and we were talking and this is not not that long ago, I'm not talking like 20 years ago, you know, in the last couple of years. We were talking about summer students and representation in summer students and we were discussing some processes or some strategies to hire more Indigenous students. And one of the managers said, I don't know, we hired an Indigenous student last year. He didn't work out. I don't know if I can get my team on board again to hire one this year, right? Now, would we ever say that about men or even women? Would we ever say like, listen, I hired a female student last year, she didn't work out. So let's just look at the male resumes
Kim MacDonald:
That is a
Manju Varma:
now,
Kim MacDonald:
very,
Manju Varma:
right?
Kim MacDonald:
yeah, very interesting comment and
Manju Varma:
Thanks for watching!
Kim MacDonald:
to explore.
Manju Varma:
Yes, yeah. And then the question is, well, why did that person not do well? Maybe that person didn't do well because they didn't have a work ethic, or maybe they weren't skilled at the position. Like there's all sorts of reasons, but maybe they didn't do well because the supports were not there for them as well, because the workplace was not inclusive. And
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
it's ironic because it comes out being the detriment of the people you're trying to help in the first place. not inclusive in your workplace, and so those people leave. And then the common statements that we hear is, I did all this work to get someone with a disability into this position, and then they left. So I'm not doing that again. Whereas if you said, how much work did I do to make this place inclusive?
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
And these are not hard things to do. There are some processes that require a lot of thought, a lot of changes, maybe policy changes, and those are difficult, their work, but then there are other things that are low-hanging fruit.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
For example, my family celebrates Diwali, which is a Hindu festival. It's kind of like New Year's and Christmas mixed together. And it usually takes place at the end of October or beginning of November. So when I first started working I would never ask for that time off. Like it would never even occur to me to ask that. So, you know, you'd work all day and then you rush home. Imagine working all day so that you can celebrate Christmas at night. You know,
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
like most people get like Christmas Eve off and maybe even the day before Christmas Eve off, right? But imagine you're working and then you come home and have to celebrate Christmas, which is what, you know, my family and I had to do. As time went on about diversity and inclusion, I actually last year asked for the day off, right? And my manager said, sure, like, you know, it'll come up in one of your vacation times. So it's a little bit of inclusion, but
Kim MacDonald:
Right.
Manju Varma:
there was also a big meeting plan for that day. So I ended up coming in anyways, because it would be a detriment to my career to
Kim MacDonald:
Right.
Manju Varma:
not be there. So that's, that's a little bit of inclusion. More
Kim MacDonald:
Yep.
Manju Varma:
inclusion would have been to say, you Yes, you can take that day off and let's make sure there's nothing important going on that day. Right?
Kim MacDonald:
Right. So the level
Manju Varma:
More,
Kim MacDonald:
of the change,
Manju Varma:
that's right.
Kim MacDonald:
the
Manju Varma:
Even
Kim MacDonald:
depth
Manju Varma:
more
Kim MacDonald:
of the change.
Manju Varma:
inclusion would be, let's talk about holiday swapping. It depends on the work. Would you be interested in working Christmas day and then you can have Diwali off and it does not come off your vacation time? That's
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
even more inclusion, right?
Kim MacDonald:
Right.
Manju Varma:
give you a day off, you can have it on vacation time. And it's even pretty easy for most of us to be able to rearrange meetings, because we know, you know, Manju's not going to be there, or it's Ramadan, and certain people are not going to be there, or they're not going to be at their best because they are fasting all day. So let's not have any grand meetings or meetings that require travel during that time. Right to the big, let's look at some holiday swapping, which are
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
HR issues. So
Kim MacDonald:
Yep.
Manju Varma:
that's a whole different level inclusion. And what I love at NSCC, what I see happening is that level, that higher level of inclusion. So I'm super excited about being part
Kim MacDonald:
Mmm.
Manju Varma:
of that. And I can give you an example. It just was a
Kim MacDonald:
Great,
Manju Varma:
meeting that we had
Kim MacDonald:
yeah.
Manju Varma:
yesterday. So we've been my office has been meeting with communications and because they're focused on a whole new branding of NSCC. In the past, my office would not have been asked. I don't mean just at NSCC, but in any organization, chances are branding and marketing would never reach out to the one person doing diversity, right?
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
And if they did, it was like, do we have enough black people? Do we have enough Asian people in our commercials? That sort of diversity.
Kim MacDonald:
level. Right.
Manju Varma:
No inclusion, just diversity. with the conversation that I had with the marketing people at NSCC. So first of all, we were invited to several meetings to give our viewpoint. It wasn't like, oh, here's what we're doing. So can you guys like diversify this up? It was not like that. It was like, what are some of the concerns that you have? And how can we work together to put out the next phase of marketing? How can we reflect diversity? So yesterday, we're having a conversation about an idea little videos of students who would be going to NSCC. So one of the videos is someone's first day and all of that angst, right? Did I make the right choice? But as we were talking, they said to us, well, what about a video of someone coming in who is from a marginalized community and they're asking questions in their head, like, am I gonna face any microaggressions? talk to if I need cultural support. We would have never thought about those years ago. So when I talk about like how far ahead NSCC is in inclusion and equity in creating safe spaces, it's just they're going to levels that I never really thought about. So I find that extremely exciting.
Kim MacDonald:
That is exciting. So I think that level of higher thinking or deeper thinking or
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
wider thinking around inclusion, how can organizations, so you and I have talked about the link with psychological health and safety and how that is creating a safe space and people can be themselves and can also ensure that the organization isn't unintentionally creating harms through some of the things that they do. How does that link or how do you see that link happening with the inclusion and the psychological health and safety for the work that you're doing?
Manju Varma:
That's a really good question. I guess I'll go back to last year when I was commissioner on systemic racism for New Brunswick. And looking at the trends and patterns, the extent and scope of systemic racism. And I did this through consultations. Many of the individuals that I spoke with and many of the organizations that I spoke with focused on safety. and a whole, a very holistic or more complex idea of safety. So for example, you know, safe neighborhoods, what's that mean? Well, for some of us, that means well-lit parks, well-lit streets, so you can walk home in the dark and not be worried about, you know, the encountering any issues. But some of the people I spoke to also told me stories about other neighbours stopping them. I heard this mainly among black participants, so that their kids had been stopped in the neighbourhood at night by other neighbours because they didn't think they belonged there. So these are obviously people that don't know each You know, I live in a neighborhood. I like to, I like the idea that I can walk around my neighborhood and not worry that someone's going to see me and think, well, she doesn't look like she belongs here. Right. Which is what these participants were telling me.
Kim MacDonald:
Mm.
Manju Varma:
You know, there were stories about there were one participant telling me that her son was walking on it around midnight, had a hoodie on and somebody actually came out of their home and took a picture of him.
Kim MacDonald:
Oh goodness.
Manju Varma:
posted on their Facebook page, the neighborhood Facebook page, that this particular individual was out and he looked sketchy. Now, what is sketchy about this person? And so the mom actually responded and said, that's my son. We have lived in this neighborhood for how many years. And I'd like to know what it is that you you find sketchy about him, right? It's walking home and he has a hoodie on. So of course then everybody starts responding, right? But yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes, it's brave to respond sometimes.
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
It's brave
Manju Varma:
yes,
Kim MacDonald:
to respond in
Manju Varma:
yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
that whole conversation probably with a person in their head about, should I respond? How do I respond? I still feel safe
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
for responding. I'm not
Manju Varma:
how
Kim MacDonald:
sure
Manju Varma:
do
Kim MacDonald:
if I'm
Manju Varma:
I
Kim MacDonald:
responding
Manju Varma:
respond
Kim MacDonald:
to your
Manju Varma:
and
Kim MacDonald:
question
Manju Varma:
still
Kim MacDonald:
or if I'm
Manju Varma:
feel
Kim MacDonald:
responding to your
Manju Varma:
safe?
Kim MacDonald:
question. I'm not sure
Manju Varma:
Because
Kim MacDonald:
if I'm responding
Manju Varma:
now
Kim MacDonald:
to your question. I'm not sure if I'm responding
Manju Varma:
other
Kim MacDonald:
to your question.
Manju Varma:
neighbors came out in defense of this person who had taken a photo because nobody wants to say, well, yeah, I took a photo of that person because he is black and it's dark and he's wearing a hoodie. And so I made the assumption that the racist assumption that he doesn't belong here. No one's going to come out and say that, even
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
though that's exactly what rolled out. Right. both safety in some different places, seeing role models in the workplace. If you're working, and I've had this happen to me, where I'm working, I see other people get promoted, I look at management, they're all white. If I don't see role models in the place of work, if I don't see potential for me to move up, then that's a type of lack of safety as well, right? You don't have that career safety, that there is an opportunity for me here. There is an opportunity to make change here. And again, I heard that from many people last year in my role as commissioner who said like, yeah, you know, they, that my work has a multicultural, you know, potlucks and they send out messages saying, oh, it's Ramadan. But I don't see anybody in the executive that looks like me, right? no thoughts that someone like me could end up an executive because everyone seems to know each other. Their kids all know each other. The kids all go to the same school. So that isolation, that lack of promise, or the idea that your expertise is continuously overlooked. We do that with foreign trade. I don't even like calling them foreign trade. Internationally trained people. Oh, you
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
don't have... enough Canadian experience so you can't have this position. So yeah, safety is more than just being able to get from point A to point B and not worry about your physical safety. It's about all those other things. Do you feel safe enough to go to your manager and ask if you could have Diwali off? Or do you feel exceptionally safe and say to your manager, I'd like to have Diwali off, and I also notice that there's a big meeting. Is there any way that we can move that meeting to the next day so that I can participate? You know, and it's not just a race issue. People with disabilities feeling safe enough to have that conversation with their managers about having a disability, maybe feeling safe enough to say, this is what I can do and this is what I can't do, or this is what I can do, but it takes me longer to do it.
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
that I need. So I think we really need to think beyond, and I mean, you do this work all the time, beyond just physical safety, but how is my spiritual, how is my emotional safety also, how is my professional safety also protected in this workplace? And if it isn't, and if you can, you need to move on because
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
it will grind you down, right?
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah,
Manju Varma:
And
Kim MacDonald:
and the impacts of chronic stress and the chronic
Manju Varma:
That's right.
Kim MacDonald:
stress impact of those feelings of exclusion or,
Manju Varma:
Uh huh.
Kim MacDonald:
and other impacts and harms are pretty clear in the data.
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
We, we know that, and we know what happens when those factors are not managed well and the risks
Manju Varma:
Right.
Kim MacDonald:
to harms are not managed for the, for the Nova Scotia community college. So if you get a complaint or if there is an issue, how does your office like that's also just coming forward with a complaint is
Manju Varma:
and
Kim MacDonald:
is a very brave
Manju Varma:
Absolutely.
Kim MacDonald:
step for any student to take or a faculty member or an employee to take forward.
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
How do you process or how do you think about those things or your team think about those things? Because that's if there isn't safety or if that language and conversation hasn't been happening you know in the higher level for long you know, what kind of complaints, I guess, are you seeing? Or what kind of things do people bring forward that they want your department to address?
Manju Varma:
Well, I'm going to preface that by saying I've been at the college for two months.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes,
Manju Varma:
So,
Kim MacDonald:
it's very
Manju Varma:
right.
Kim MacDonald:
early days. Yeah,
Manju Varma:
It's early days for me. Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
it is.
Manju Varma:
So
Kim MacDonald:
It's very early.
Manju Varma:
I cannot walk you through the actual process because
Kim MacDonald:
Yes,
Manju Varma:
I have
Kim MacDonald:
that's
Manju Varma:
a fantastic
Kim MacDonald:
it.
Manju Varma:
manager who does that. Um,
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
so, uh, first of all, I have an awesome team and that's important, right? And a lot of my team members are first voice people. So, and what I mean by that. is you know we don't when we talk about indigenous issues Mi'kmaq issues in Nova Scotia we have someone who works for us from that community now obviously she's not going to represent the whole community we don't want anyone to do that but there's a first voice component
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
in the past perhaps somebody at the executive director level like you know me in my position could it might have discrimination, right? But now it is held by someone who has. So we talk about first voice experiences. From a process perspective, what I do know is, A, that our team is very well-versed. Those who deal with these complaints are very well-versed in respectful community policies, very well-versed in human rights. human rights mean. It's a word that we toss around a lot,
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
but we have legal expertise that really understands what human rights means and how that involves everyone. And we have processes. We have policies. And when we see that a policy is lacking, we work to get towards that policy. So for example, right now, I know we're working on, call a whistleblower policy.
Kim MacDonald:
Okay,
Manju Varma:
Because
Kim MacDonald:
yep.
Manju Varma:
it is incredible, like as you point out, it's incredibly courageous to make a complaint. And we now know, you know, through all the researches, research that witnessing harassment, witnessing discrimination, being a bystander can be just as traumatic as actually
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
experiencing it yourself. So we do a lot of education around that more education around that. And education is actually a really important part of the work that we want to do. Because if we can avoid situations before they happen, so the proactive work,
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
then our hope is that we can minimize complaints or at the very, you know, if the complaint comes through, be able to come up with a win-win, being able to mediate those conflicts at the lowest level so that people don't walk away victimized, people don't walk away traumatized, and that includes everyone, right? However, at the same time, there is an emphasis on everyone needs to come to the table. This is not just work for marginalized people. It is not the responsibility discrimination. It is the responsibility of everyone. So that also means that for our faculty, staff, students who are in the majority of some privilege, so for example I'm I'm able-bodied, right? It is my responsibility to understand the challenges and issues and how So we know that through some of our numbers, that we are getting more and more students who are on the autism spectrum.
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
So using that data, it's like, okay, what's our responsibility? Well, our responsibility now is to start training our staff, to start training our faculty, to put in supports for people so that they understand how to work with people who are on the autism spectrum. It doesn't just put the onus on that student to say, okay, if something happens to you, here it is, here's this lovely department, you can come and make a complaint and we'll deal with it. No, it's far more holistic than that. It is about training faculty, training staff, because that creates safety for them as well, right? To say, okay, here are some tools, here's some knowledge that you need to have, because you're gonna see more and more students who have certain challenges the classroom in a different learning world than what you're used to. So by giving this education, we're protecting everyone. We're creating safe spaces for everyone. Because it's hard to talk about privilege. You know, you hear privilege and you're kind of like, oh, you get your back up and it's like, no, no, I'm not privileged. I worked really hard to get to where I am, just like we all did. But understanding someone's privilege or understanding your own privilege hardship. It means understanding that others had hardship, but that there's layers upon it that you never
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
had to think about.
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah.
Manju Varma:
And so one of the things I do when I talk about privilege is I talk about the word because it's the word that's out there. Everybody knows about the word privilege, but I try to use the metaphor of a safety net instead. So I tell people,
Kim MacDonald:
Can I just,
Manju Varma:
yep.
Kim MacDonald:
Dr. Varma, is there something ringing?
Manju Varma:
Oh yes there is in the background. It's in
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
a- it's two rooms away. Should
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
I?
Kim MacDonald:
No, I can just I'm just going to note it in our
Manju Varma:
Okay.
Kim MacDonald:
39. Yeah. So is it possible to stop it or did you will it
Manju Varma:
Yeah,
Kim MacDonald:
stop
Manju Varma:
now
Kim MacDonald:
eventually?
Manju Varma:
I can go see and stop
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
it. Thanks for watching! Was somebody trying to call me on a Skype call?
Kim MacDonald:
Got it? That's awesome. No worries.
Manju Varma:
That's
Kim MacDonald:
We can.
Manju Varma:
great. That's amazing. You picked it up. Like I could
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah,
Manju Varma:
barely hear it.
Kim MacDonald:
that's good. All right. All right there. I've noted
Manju Varma:
Yeah,
Kim MacDonald:
it. So we'll
Manju Varma:
okay.
Kim MacDonald:
just cut that.
Manju Varma:
Yep.
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah. All right.
Manju Varma:
So yeah, I know privilege is hard for people to talk about, but you have to have that conversation, right? So what I try to do is use the metaphor of a safety net. And I think of, you know, when you used to go to the circus and you saw the trapeze artists and they had that safety net underneath. So I challenged people and it's that you have had in your life. All
Kim MacDonald:
Okay,
Manju Varma:
right.
Kim MacDonald:
I'm actually thinking. Okay.
Manju Varma:
Okay. Now, and you had a safety net underneath. Think about the safety net. And maybe the safety net was that you had access to therapy because you had
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
a good medical plan. Or maybe your safety net was that your family was close by and able to help you. Now I want you to think about people right?
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
And cut a hole in your safety net if you did not have to think about that.
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
If in your most difficult time, if you didn't have to think about finances, if you did, if you didn't cut a hole in your safety net, right? So it's not so much about what you had and what you didn't have. It's about what does your safety net look like, My kids were tweens at the time. And as difficult as all that was, I was financially stable. My children were not having any issues in school. I did not have, you know, I had my family close by so I didn't have childcare issues that I needed to worry about. My best friend is a divorce lawyer. But then I thought, okay, what if I didn't have all those things? What if I was a single mom without all those things? So I'm a single mom, I'm dealing with divorce, I know how hard that is, but what if I didn't have a good job? What if I also had to deal with the stereotypes around single moms, which I didn't? What if my kids went through a really hard time and I had to get them therapy? with that at the same time. What if I wasn't safe and I had to leave the, you know, the community,
Kim MacDonald:
Community.
Manju Varma:
right? Then all of a sudden that most difficult time that I've had, and I'm not saying I'm not trying to undermine it, it was a difficult time, but my safety net was much different than what it could have been. So...
Kim MacDonald:
I
Manju Varma:
When
Kim MacDonald:
love that
Manju Varma:
I think
Kim MacDonald:
analogy.
Manju Varma:
about that, when I think about that, I think how do we tighten
Kim MacDonald:
Mmm.
Manju Varma:
the safety net for people? So if a woman is going through a divorce and she is fearful because of violence, how do we tighten her safety net? Well, we get supports in, we advocate for communities to have places where women can go safe places. What if the children are having a hard time? Well, let's get some supports into schools. So let's get everyone's safety net what mine looked like. You're still going to go through a difficult time, it still really sucks, but you have a safety net. And I find when I talk about that rather than privilege, people are more on board.
Kim MacDonald:
I think visual analogies are so good for communicating difficult, sort of challenging concepts. I really
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
love that safety net idea. How do you talk or how would you help an organization talk to their managers when they're trying to work through some of those things? And so an individual or one individual or another has certain needs during a particular time in their career work life within that
Manju Varma:
Mm.
Kim MacDonald:
organization. And so the attention and the need of that person is different than others. And you put some of those things in place. And some of the conversation that I hear is around fairness. Equality or equalness
Manju Varma:
and
Kim MacDonald:
versus that someone can then maybe come into work a little bit later because they do have to now as the sole parent
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
daycare or to school, and that I don't get that benefit at this moment in time. How would you help managers who are struggling with that, trying to create psychological health and safety, really emphasizing mental health in the workplace and recognizing we have different needs at different times, but that crunchiness where this conversation of fairness?
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
I want that. that, I would like to have that too. How do you navigate some of that conversation or that kind of friction that can happen within workplace?
Manju Varma:
Yeah, and it does. It does. There's so much to unpack in what
Kim MacDonald:
Yes,
Manju Varma:
you said,
Kim MacDonald:
I know,
Manju Varma:
like that,
Kim MacDonald:
I know.
Manju Varma:
like that, the quality
Kim MacDonald:
Try
Manju Varma:
thing.
Kim MacDonald:
not to
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
make it hard,
Manju Varma:
Yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
you
Manju Varma:
Yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
know, easy, easy for you. Yeah.
Manju Varma:
Equality. Like, yes. I mean, we learned from a really young age, right? Like fairness. You give,
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
I say you give one kid some candy and the other, you don't. It's like, oh my God, it's not fair. You know, my partner and I were talking about Easter egg hunts and I like, okay, we have to have the same number of eggs for both
Kim MacDonald:
I know.
Manju Varma:
grandkids, And so how are we going to do that? Because it's got to be fair.
Kim MacDonald:
I think
Manju Varma:
Right.
Kim MacDonald:
we do that in so many parts of our lives
Manju Varma:
We do.
Kim MacDonald:
early, but can't like, you know, the number, even if you're hunting for the eggs, it's like
Manju Varma:
Thanks for watching!
Kim MacDonald:
you want the two little toddlers to each get the same amount
Manju Varma:
Right,
Kim MacDonald:
in their egg when you're looking
Manju Varma:
but
Kim MacDonald:
for them, like
Manju Varma:
what
Kim MacDonald:
all
Manju Varma:
if
Kim MacDonald:
kinds
Manju Varma:
one
Kim MacDonald:
of
Manju Varma:
toddler
Kim MacDonald:
little
Manju Varma:
is
Kim MacDonald:
twisty.
Manju Varma:
just really good? Or
Kim MacDonald:
I
Manju Varma:
like,
Kim MacDonald:
know a
Manju Varma:
don't
Kim MacDonald:
really
Manju Varma:
they deserve
Kim MacDonald:
good Easter
Manju Varma:
more
Kim MacDonald:
egg hunter.
Manju Varma:
eggs? Yeah,
Kim MacDonald:
Love
Manju Varma:
don't
Kim MacDonald:
that.
Manju Varma:
they deserve
Kim MacDonald:
I
Manju Varma:
more
Kim MacDonald:
love
Manju Varma:
eggs? Like,
Kim MacDonald:
that. They absolutely
Manju Varma:
I don't
Kim MacDonald:
do.
Manju Varma:
know, right? I
Kim MacDonald:
I
Manju Varma:
don't
Kim MacDonald:
don't
Manju Varma:
know
Kim MacDonald:
know.
Manju Varma:
if they deserve more eggs. So,
Kim MacDonald:
Like I kind of think
Manju Varma:
but
Kim MacDonald:
they
Manju Varma:
bringing
Kim MacDonald:
do,
Manju Varma:
that,
Kim MacDonald:
but
Manju Varma:
I kind
Kim MacDonald:
you
Manju Varma:
of think they do too,
Kim MacDonald:
know.
Manju Varma:
but bring that into the, I don't know,
Kim MacDonald:
I know. So
Manju Varma:
make
Kim MacDonald:
these
Manju Varma:
sure
Kim MacDonald:
are
Manju Varma:
he's
Kim MacDonald:
really,
Manju Varma:
not listening.
Kim MacDonald:
it's like we, we started such a, like this cutting
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
up the pie that like, that,
Manju Varma:
Right.
Kim MacDonald:
that, uh, sort of that, that benefit is not pie. Look,
Manju Varma:
Right,
Kim MacDonald:
you know, it's not
Manju Varma:
exactly.
Kim MacDonald:
pie and everybody gets an equal piece at the same time. So I know
Manju Varma:
But
Kim MacDonald:
it's a
Manju Varma:
but what if one person's hungrier than another? Or
Kim MacDonald:
I
Manju Varma:
what
Kim MacDonald:
know,
Manju Varma:
if some person
Kim MacDonald:
yeah.
Manju Varma:
like baked that pie? Shouldn't they get more of that pie? So
Kim MacDonald:
These are
Manju Varma:
it's,
Kim MacDonald:
some of the
Manju Varma:
you know,
Kim MacDonald:
translated
Manju Varma:
yes.
Kim MacDonald:
analogies that we see playing out in workplaces.
Manju Varma:
Exactly.
Kim MacDonald:
And it's a, the fairness question is a really, I think I hear it a lot from managers about that struggle of,
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
of communicating and behaving themselves in a way that, that can then support mental health at work
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
and having, reducing the harms when you need to reduce the harms or putting protective impact on someone's mental health when they're in different places in their life. And there's lots of different scenarios, but that one is interesting, I think, to try to figure
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
out. And many managers struggle with that, the question of equality,
Manju Varma:
Yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
equalness and fairness. You know.
Manju Varma:
When I've worked with managers on this, or organizations, regardless at what level, the first thing I talk about is the difference between equality and equity. So equality is everyone gets the same thing, and equity is everyone gets what they need, which can be very different things. Yeah,
Kim MacDonald:
That's a great, clear message for managers.
Manju Varma:
exactly. And the other thing is have these discussions before you have an issue. where if you're going
Kim MacDonald:
Hmm.
Manju Varma:
to make diversity, inclusion, equity a priority, then have these discussions before. We have fire drills. When we were all in the office, we'd have fire drills. We didn't wait for a fire and then say, OK, now's the time
Kim MacDonald:
Yeah,
Manju Varma:
to practice.
Kim MacDonald:
love that.
Manju Varma:
We didn't. We said, OK, we need to practice so when the real thing happens, people know what to do.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
So a message I tried to get to you organizations is start today. You don't need to have a big committee. You don't need to have policy changes. You can do that as time goes on, but today start just using those words. Because that's how we give people what they need in order to be the best that they are. So, there's a great cartoon on the internet and you can Google it. If you Google equality I love is one of everybody on the same bike. Right. So
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
you've got someone like me who's five foot two and I'm on this bike and it's working for me, you know, like it's, it's, it's, it's at my right height. And then the person behind is like six foot two and they're on the exact same bike and they're all hunched over and they're uncomfortable and they can't move forward. And then you've got this little toddler on a bike and they're falling over because they really
Kim MacDonald:
Come on.
Manju Varma:
need a tricycle. So
Kim MacDonald:
Mm-hmm.
Manju Varma:
what the person who's six foot two needs is a bigger bike. And the person who is a toddler needs three wheels. They don't need two wheels. They need three wheels. So in order for this family to go on a bike ride, everybody needs to have what they need, not all the same bikes. And it's the same thing at the workplace. If we're going to move forward, and we're going to move forward people's careers, their learning experience, the part of their life that everyone should be getting what they need, not what everyone else is getting. So a great example of this is for a while in the public service, in the federal public service, everyone got like a thousand dollars for language training.
Kim MacDonald:
Okay.
Manju Varma:
But that was for everybody. So you could be perfectly by officially bilingual, right? And you still get your thousand dollars or you've never even heard the other official language and you still get a thousand dollars. Well, the people who are officially bilingual never spent it because why would they? Right? And the people that had grown up in a community, gone to school in a community in one official language, never heard the other official language, well, they still only got a thousand dollars. That's not going to work for them. So now it's different. It's like, okay, if you don't You reach your language efficiencies. That's not going to be a hurdle in your career. That's great. Let's look at maybe some other things that are going to be a hurdle. For the people who need more than that $1,000 package, let's give them more.
Kim MacDonald:
Hmm.
Manju Varma:
So we're not, each person has equal opportunity to the next position, but they're given different supports to reach that opportunity. And that's what we need to think about. about equality, we often slip into color blindness, right? Like, oh, I treat everyone the same. I've heard so many teachers say that. I think I said that as a teacher and I'm sure I heard it in teacher school or, you know, teacher education.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes.
Manju Varma:
Just treat everyone the same, right? But we know that the child who comes to school without breakfast and the child who comes to school with an iPad in their backpack are not the same. They do not have the same the equal access to opportunities. So you give them the same test, and the child who didn't have breakfast doesn't do as well as a child who has an iPad that can pull it out and do some research, and you say, okay, well, I treated you both the same, and you made an A and you failed. That's equality, that's not equity.
Kim MacDonald:
I love the notion of talking the preventative conversation
Manju Varma:
Absolutely,
Kim MacDonald:
so,
Manju Varma:
yes.
Kim MacDonald:
and the spread of the preventative conversation. It is one thing that we Canadians, that stereotype of Canadians, but it is true and shows up in the research too, that we do not like comfortable conversation or uncomfortable conversations.
Manju Varma:
No, we don't.
Kim MacDonald:
So, and we do like try to avoid them at all costs
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
in many ways in the workplace and having them before, you know, someone is in struggle and having them in a broader way can create some fluency with talking about those kinds of things outside of a moment of, you know, a complaint or
Manju Varma:
Okay.
Kim MacDonald:
having that conversation and having it sort of shored up with the educational component that you mentioned. But I think it is talking about it more having deeper conversations in a preventative sort of approach
Manju Varma:
Yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
versus something happens and then we start to try to have the conversations after it. So where we can
Manju Varma:
Yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
do those preventative conversations and they really show up as protections.
Manju Varma:
Absolutely.
Kim MacDonald:
They end
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
up being a protection because
Manju Varma:
Yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
you've had the preventative conversation
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
and everyone understands what's going to happen when
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
something happens. And
Manju Varma:
And that's the
Kim MacDonald:
if...
Manju Varma:
other part, right? I mean, there are several pillars here. One pillar is the proactive education, whether it's through training, whether it's through conversation, mandatory training, that all depends on the organization. But the other pillars have to be there as well. Representation
Kim MacDonald:
Hmm.
Manju Varma:
is something you need to have in your... You can't talk about inclusion and diversity and then look at your management table and have none of that there. So you need to have to have accountability so that if someone does say something, if they make a racist joke that or a comment or they purposely choose not to hire somebody because of the way they look or because of their you know they have a disability that there is very clear processes on that and that's
Kim MacDonald:
Hmm.
Manju Varma:
one thing that we're working on you know at NSCC when you talked about the play process we are doing got amazing people working on this to let's make this process clear. So no one is surprised that you can't make a racist joke in the classroom or no
Kim MacDonald:
I'm gonna go.
Manju Varma:
one is surprised.
Kim MacDonald:
I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.
Manju Varma:
And we laugh at that, but people are, people
Kim MacDonald:
I know.
Manju Varma:
are like, you know, I was using that word, uh, you know, in reference
Kim MacDonald:
It
Manju Varma:
to
Kim MacDonald:
seems
Manju Varma:
a text.
Kim MacDonald:
clear.
Manju Varma:
What were you thinking? Right. So all of those have to be there. The education, aggressions to happen in this workplace. This is what a microaggression looks like and we won't allow it. If you instigate it, here are the steps. Those
Kim MacDonald:
That
Manju Varma:
things
Kim MacDonald:
trance,
Manju Varma:
have to be clear.
Kim MacDonald:
yeah, that transparency and explicit communication. So not
Manju Varma:
and
Kim MacDonald:
leaving things to assumptions or, um, you know, having explicit communication, just functionally descriptive understanding
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
of what that is and what the, what the impact is. And also what the accountability and responsibility is for each of us. Those are, there's, you know, there's an, there's an infographic in there somewhere. It's part
Manju Varma:
Probably.
Kim MacDonald:
of that.
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
that Dr. Varma
Manju Varma:
yes.
Kim MacDonald:
is like, yeah, there's an infographic in there. Well, this has been an amazing conversation, amazing conversation
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
filled
Manju Varma:
thank
Kim MacDonald:
with
Manju Varma:
you.
Kim MacDonald:
great, good advice for workplaces, really exciting to hear what's happening at the community college in Nova Scotia. It is a big system that's across the entire province and there's
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
13 campuses
Manju Varma:
that's
Kim MacDonald:
and
Manju Varma:
right. And
Kim MacDonald:
an important
Manju Varma:
one campus that's a Ecampus, so 14 in total.
Kim MacDonald:
Yes, oh,
Manju Varma:
Yeah, yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
that's wonderful. So it's sort of the breath and the, it's a big challenge and a
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
big job to be thinking about these things in all of those pillars. But it's from an educational perspective, which is dear to my heart, and the community
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
college system, which is also dear to my heart. So it has a special place in my heart. Love that these things are continuing to evolve. And I think that the work that you're going to be doing and the work that you're doing on a national level is amazing work and it's exciting and challenging and hard and difficult and probably filled with struggle. And that's part of finding the joy in that, in the work,
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
even
Manju Varma:
yeah.
Kim MacDonald:
with some of that difficult work that your team is doing is their challenge for themselves in the workplace. But it's exciting time. So I'm so excited that you were able to share some of that with our listeners.
Manju Varma:
Thank you.
Kim MacDonald:
how would they
Manju Varma:
Mm-hmm.
Kim MacDonald:
reach out to you?
Manju Varma:
They can contact me at NSCC. And if they are interested in the school itself, I would be happy to pass on their emails wherever they're interested in. If they're interested in what the school is doing, what the college is doing to become more inclusive, they can certainly contact me. So it's my first name, Manju, M-A-N-J-U. My last name is Varma, V as in Victor, So it's manju.varma at nscc.ca.
Kim MacDonald:
All
Manju Varma:
But
Kim MacDonald:
right.
Manju Varma:
you can also look me up on LinkedIn and.
Kim MacDonald:
That's great. Yes, LinkedIn is awesome for
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
finding and
Manju Varma:
yes.
Kim MacDonald:
connecting
Manju Varma:
I
Kim MacDonald:
with
Manju Varma:
think
Kim MacDonald:
people.
Manju Varma:
that's how we connected, wasn't it?
Kim MacDonald:
It is, it's how we connected. So
Manju Varma:
Yes.
Kim MacDonald:
thank you so much for all of your thoughts and ideas and the wisdom today and exciting days ahead. So I appreciate
Manju Varma:
Yes,
Kim MacDonald:
that
Manju Varma:
absolutely.
Kim MacDonald:
very much. Yeah, and thank you for all of our listeners who tuned in from wherever you get your podcast. And I just wanted to close with sharing that you can reach out to me as well or at 13 factors, my company. And thank you for coming and listening to this episode. And you can also, while you're here, take a listen to other episodes and other topics that we cover here on the podcast and have a great week. And we'll talk to you again soon and check back in and also share this particular episode if you're interested with colleagues. And that's how we reach more and with the message of psychological health and safety in Canada. Thanks a lot and until next time.
Manju Varma:
Thank you.